Women in Economics: Heather Long

Maria Hasenstab: Welcome to the St. Louis Fed’s Women in Economics podcast series, where we interview women who are making their marks in the field of economics. I’m your host, Maria Hasenstab.

In this episode, we speak with Heather Long, an award-winning journalist. She is an editorial writer and columnist at The Washington Post.

Heather, thank you for joining us today.

Heather Long: Thanks, Maria. Thrilled to be here.

Hasenstab: Heather, you have an impressive journalism resume. Before your current position as editorial writer and columnist at The Washington Post you were the U.S. economics correspondent, and notably, you played a large role in identifying and covering the K-shaped recovery from the pandemic and the great reassessment of work. Before you were at the post, you were a senior economics reporter at CNN, and you won a Pulitzer earlier in your career when you were reporting at the Patriot-News in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Yet you have an undergrad degree and a master’s degree in economics. When you chose to study economics, could you have imagined this career in journalism?

Long: No, I actually did English and economics for undergrad and then have master’s degrees in both of those. My mantra is always there’s no wrong turns in your 20s, or almost no wrong turns. We can probably think of a few things that may be truly wrong, but I was definitely one of those people who was excited about a lot of things and not very focused. When I graduated from Wellesley College with the economics and English degree, I thought I wanted to be a professor. I’d had great professors. It seemed like a great track.

I was fortunate to win a Rhodes Scholarship and go to Oxford University. I got midway through my first degree in medieval literature and realized this was really interesting, but it was not my life’s calling. And so then I was able to do a second master’s in financial economics. They had just started the financial economics degree, that was a real change, and I was one of the few women in that course, as you might imagine, which was a big jolt coming from Wellesley, an all-female institution at the time.

And most of us, including me, got jobs in London working in finance. And this was pre great recession. It was a very wild time in the markets. And I also kind of had a realization moment that, gee, it’s really fun living in London. But gee, this really is not my life calling. And in June of 2008, three months before Lehman Brothers falls and the whole world goes upside down in September of 2008, I decide to leave London to move back to my hometown of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, to work for the Patriot-News. And I always say to young people when they ask it, I distinctly remember a friend of mine calling me and saying, you are out of your mind. I cannot even find this place on the map that you’re going to. And I was really upset. Like, this is my hometown. Okay, let’s be a little bit kind here. But I just knew in my heart that I wanted to try journalism. And there was an editor-in-chief at that paper and a publisher that were willing to give me a chance.

I was a hometown girl, had all these crazy experiences, and wanted to come back to journalism. And I remember that when I was sitting in finance in London, as great as London was, I used to just count on the clock how many more minutes on Friday until this job ended versus they used to have to tell me to go home in Harrisburg. They were like, you should go home now, you’ve been here a long time.

I just loved being at that local newspaper. And I think in life sometimes you have to know in your heart that you want to do something so much that even when a bunch of your friends think you’re totally crazy, you’re like, no, this is me. You have that conviction. It took me a while to get there, but I’m glad I did.

I think Fed Chair Powell was just giving a talk at Stanford recently where he was describing his also very circuitous career path, and he had some similar advice to young people there. That you don’t always have to have it figured out at 20 or 22 or 24 or even age 30. It took me a long time to kind of get get on the right path. And sometimes you got to take some risks.

Hasenstab: I love that you took some risks and it’s really paid off. Let’s talk a little bit more about your education. You studied economics and English at Wellesley College, and you have your master’s degrees in financial economics and medieval literature from Oxford University. I bet you had an interesting cross-section of classes. How did those areas of study fit together for you?

Long: I did get an A once on a paper I wrote on the economics of Chaucer, so I suspect it was the only one in the professor’s 40-year history of the economical analysis of Chaucer. So, sometimes it’s helpful to be a little bit outside the norm.

But I was thinking about this. At the time, it didn’t seem to fit together. It seemed, particularly since I was quite focused on early English literature, medieval literature, and then economics, particularly financial economics and behavioral economics at the time, which in these two fields probably felt very far apart in many ways, particularly in academia.

But today it makes a lot of sense. Obviously, it makes a lot of sense with what I’m doing, as an economic journalist. But also, I was thinking Bob Shiller had recently come out with that book on narrative economics. I think there’s kind of a greater understanding that we need both the theories of economic shocks and the principles. But we also need to understand a lot more how individual people view the economy, sort of their individual personal stories that can rise up and become big drivers of what’s happening in the economy. We’re seeing this a little bit right now, all this confusion around, say, the economic data looks pretty good, but why did why did the vibes, why do a lot of Americans not feel great in this economy? You’re kind of seeing that divide between the data and the in the narrative.

I didn’t quite have it all figured out like that in my in my studies at the time. But I think that’s how it’s really come together quite nicely for me over time.

Hasenstab: Those storytelling skills. Right. You’re able to make these stories come to life.

Wellesley is a women’s college in Massachusetts and economics is one of the most popular majors there. Late last year, a research paper showed that women were 80% to 90% more likely to study economics if they enroll at Wellesley. The authors attributed some of this to the Wellesley effect, or the fact that women make up more of the faculty in economics at Wellesley than at other institutions.

I wanted to ask you, was that your experience? And do you think this Wellesley effect could be replicated at other, colleges and universities to open the door to more women to the field of economics?

Long: Wellesley has been huge for me in my life and also in the field of economics. the American Economic Association actually names their mentoring for women prize, the Caroline Shaw Bell Award. Caroline Shaw Bell was a famous economics professor at Wellesley in sort of 1960s, 70s and 80s. And was just hugely instrumental in getting a lot of women, a lot maybe is a little bit of an exaggeration, but the women that did go in economics, quite a few knew Carolyn Shaw Bell, whether they either took her classes at Wellesley or were affiliated.

I am not quite that old, although I feel a little bit older now. I did not have her personally as a professor, but certainly, when I was there in the early 2000, a lot of my professors knew her and some were mentored by her. So, yeah, I would say the two things.

Number one, representation matters. And I covered the fed during the Janet Yellen era, and I saw the exact same thing. You know, when you have a lot of women faculty or when you have women who are on the Federal FOMC board or who are presidents of the regional Fed, it does change the conversation. It does inspire more people to get involved in the field and to join that institution, to join that faculty. You know, Wellesley has had a much easier time recruiting women and faculty of color than a lot of other institutions have, because there is this reputation there.

I think, though, the other thing that’s really important is it’s not just the professors. It’s also how economics is taught. What really stood out to me in my time there, and what I see even more so today, a lot of places you walk in and the first thing they do is write equations on the board. And it’s not that you don’t want math to be a part of the economics curriculum, it has to be a part of it. But at Wellesley, they flip that script a little bit and you start a lot of classes with a big question. With a question about education policy or inequality or development economics. Why does one course of action work and another tactic not work? And it just humanized what you’re doing. And then you would talk about, this is why we’re using this equation or this theory to try to study or to try to test, to figure out does the voucher program for schools work or not? Does the childcare voucher work or not?

And I think those policy questions, putting a lot more of that first tends to draw a much more diverse range of people to the field of economics. And Wellesley, in the last two years, I’m proud to say, has identified that not just is it important to have more women in economics, but even at Wellesley, most people who majored in economics were White or Asian.

And they really realized that while it’s wonderful that Wellesley is putting out a lot of women, why is this field not attracting more Hispanic students and Black students? And they actually created a whole new course at Wellesley that really focuses on students of color and furthers that narrative of opening the class with a lot of appearances by different scholars and researchers who are looking into questions around inequality and racial issues.

And that’s really helped a lot of students thrive and become more interested in economics, who, you know, saw it as kind of something that they weren’t interested in. So I’m excited. I’m excited about all of that.

And then let me just make one final point that’s a little bit different, which is, as much as I love Wellesley, I think it’s really a women’s college effect. And I was looking at the moment, you know, there’s obviously 19 leaders on the FOMC of the Fed. Seven of them are now women, which is amazing. and of those seven two of them are graduates of women’s college, sadly not Wellesley. I wish we were there, but you know, Lisa Cook, a friend of mine is a graduate of Spelman, who’s been on this podcast before, and Loretta Mester is a graduate of Barnard.

And I you know, I don’t think that’s a coincidence. I think that speaks to, it could be called the Wellesley effect, but it’s really the women’s college effect more broadly.

Hasenstab: That’s really great. And I’m glad that you highlighted that Wellesley is also doing that class to help encourage more students of color.

This podcast series launched back in 2018 as a way of lifting up and inspiring, not just women, but also members of underrepresented minorities to consider economics as a field of study and an opportunity to pursue a career. So, that’s awesome to hear that that’s happening at Wellesley.

Now I want to dive a little bit deeper into your work. In 2019, you wrote about your experience as a female attending the American Economics Association annual conference. Tell us about that experience. But then also tell us about the reaction you received to sharing your story.

Long: It was my first time going to the big AEA meeting that happens in early January. And it also happened to be this moment when economics was kind of reconciling with its own “Me Too” movement. And at that time, Ben Bernanke and Janet Yellen were helping lead the organization, and they were giving big speeches about the importance of changing the culture of economics.

They were hiring an ombudsman person for people to report issues. They were really trying to, you know, to shake things up and change and change it. So, I think when I got there, I was really surprised and I started seeing a lot of those microaggressions, I guess you could say that one might experience. And I, you know, I have a master’s in financial economics and I’ve certainly been in a lot of rooms where being one of the only women there. So, I feel like I have a pretty thick skin compared to most people. But it was stunning to me that, a couple things started happening that I ended up writing about. A couple of the panels that I attended were all male. And in several cases there were women who were listed as authors of papers that were to be presented. And in two instances, the panel sitting on the table was all male, and the female coauthors were told to sit in the audience. And, you know, in one case they said, oh, well, she can help answer questions later. I mean, it was just this stuff where you’re like, is this really happening in the year 2019?

There were a couple of other instances where I walked up to someone and I said, oh, I’m so looking forward to hearing your paper tomorrow or later this afternoon presented. And in this case, both cases, it was male panelists would say something like, oh, well, it might be a little too mathy for you, or I’m not sure you’ll be able to follow, you know, these kinds of little comments that are just little digs. And I get it. I’m a journalist. They may not know that I have a master’s in financial economics.

But in one particular case, I had gone up to the professor. It was a male. After he presented the paper and I said, oh, you know, I’d love to write about this, where can I get a copy of it? And he said to me something along the lines of, you might want to go to my website and see there’s a less mathy summary.

And I thought, OK, you know, it’s a little bit annoying, but fine. And then as I was turning to walk away, a male journalist walked up and asked basically the same question. You know, I’m interested in the paper, where can I find it? And he said to this male journalist, you know, literally five seconds after I had asked the same question, it was sort of like, well, I’ll send you the full paper. And you could also read a shorter version of it online. He didn’t say less mathy.
And it was interesting that professor actually read this piece I ended up writing which said, it’s the headline was please listen to us in quotes, what it’s like being a female at America’s biggest economic conference. And I have to say, I have to give that professor credit. He did figure out who he was. I mean, I didn’t name anybody’s names in the piece. And, you know, he wrote to me afterwards and was like, I think you were talking about me. I’m really sorry. You know, I consider myself one of the younger professors and really trying to change things. And you just realize how many sub subconscious biases that you have, even when you think you’re someone who’s trying to be part of the change here. So, in that sense, it was a very positive reaction.

I got a lot of notes from younger women faculty, from fellow female economic journalists, and we have a lot of diversity problems in economic journalism, too. I was really amazed that, kind of the the response. Thank you for writing this. We need to keep pushing this. And, you know, these, microaggressions, why they don’t sound like much individually, it adds up to something.

Hasenstab: Well, thank you for writing that story. I know it hit home with a lot of people, and I’m glad to hear that you did get positive feedback from people thanking you for sharing that story.

So, you’ve said that your reporting mantra is talk to as many real people as experts for every piece. I love that. Let’s discuss that and how it affects your work.

Long: Yes, I guess this is the storytelling part of things that come into play for me. But, I was fortunate that after working at the local paper in Harrisburg, I had moved to New York and worked for a while at CNN on their economics, leading their economics and markets coverage.

And one of the great things about CNN is it’s a huge reach. You know, across the country, millions of people tuning in. And so you heard from a lot of readers all the time. Any story you publish, there would be a lot of feedback. And so, you know, at first I was a little annoyed, like, how do I deal with all these emails and phone calls?

And then I said, no, I need to really look at this differently as a chance to interact with people, to hear from people. A unique chance to hear from people across the country, about their experience. And so we started forming almost little focus groups. You know, I’d email people like, hey, we’re writing about this, you know, do you have any stories to share? Is there anyone you think I should talk to? there were a few people that we interviewed, particularly in the 2016 election cycle, who I ended up keeping in touch with.

There’s, a roofer in Michigan who’s been, we’ve been friends now for, you know, since 2016. And once a month, if not more, we’ll exchange text messages. There’s a truck driver who literally called me yesterday. We talk probably once every month or two, for the last 7 or 8 years. And just getting that perspective, not just, you know, hey, I’m looking for someone who would be the perfect leading example for this story, but trying to sort of build this group of middle class Americans, and really understand. Like the truck driver, for instance, when the gas prices spiked in 2022, you know, then they came down pretty fast for, for like regular car gas. The diesel price did not. And truck drivers were still really upset because the diesel price had stayed high so much longer. And he was constantly in my ear about this, like, why aren’t people writing about this? I don’t think people understand, you know, truck driving is one of the most popular, professions in this nation. In most states it’s the highest job. And people are not understanding why this frustration is still there because they’re so focused on the regular gas prices coming down, they’re not looking at diesel. A number of times in my career, just having my ear to the ground like that, has really helped me to be ahead of the game.

Probably my most famous work that I’ve done was published in the spring of 2021, when I wrote the piece, it’s not a labor shortage, it’s a great reassessment of work. A month later the professor from Texas got on TV and called it the Great Resignation. I wish I’d come up with that term. Part of the reason I wrote that piece and wrote it so soon was because so many people had used some version of like, you know, I’ve totally changed my life. I used to be someone who wanted to be at the office late or who, you know, literally had never taken a break from work since I was 15 or 16. And I was home during the pandemic, staring in the mirror, going, who am I now? Who am I now? And you know, I just started hearing those stories from all different ages, from all different professions over and over again.

And so that’s how, you know, I was able to write that so much sooner when the traditional economics professor was debating is this a labor shortage, you know, where are we on the Beveridge Curve? And so that’s how it’s just worked really well for me. And I think, coming from maybe a small-town paper, hometown paper, where people literally would stop me. I realized I couldn’t go to the grocery store without getting stopped. You know, people wanted to react to things you were writing. They wanted to have input. And so, I think from the get go in my reporting training I learned really early on that you need to utilize some of those voices.

Hasenstab: Those stories come to life when you share those real people stories. And I love how you said how it started with people reaching out to you and then you forming those relationships with them. Not necessarily just going out and doing a man on the street but forming those relationships. What advice do you have for those who may be interested in pursuing a career at the intersection of economics and journalism?

Long: That’s such a great question. first of all, let me just say that if you’re not someone who necessarily wants to be a journalist, you’re an economist listening to this, please, please, please submit op-eds.

You know, raise your hand to be an expert on TV or radio for a story. I used to be op-ed editor of a couple of places and I always use the example nine times out of ten if I rejected a male writer, they would pitch me again to write a guest column within a week or two. You know, it was like if you said no, it just made a more rabid to come back. Whereas with women, nine times out of ten if you said no to a woman, even if I would go out of my way to be like, hey, we really liked what you wrote, the timing wasn’t right. Or, you know, maybe one of our main columnists written the same topic. I would say, please pitch again, nine times out of ten, I would never hear from them. You know, it’s just how people deal with rejection is very different. Unfortunately, that’s why at The Washington Post and The New York Times and Wall Street Journal, you know, sadly, 70%, sometimes even more, of the op-ed guest columns are written by men.

We really haven’t been able to move the dial on some of that expert commentary getting out there. So, I just continue to urge people that’s that’s a great way to segway and get your message out. And to be part of the dialog is to contribute, as a quoted source in a piece or submitting your own op-eds.

There’s a lot of great pathways now, like the EconoFact project out of Tufts University, where they kind of help take academic work and make a memo version of it for journalists. They also have their own podcast. And I think those are a great ways to kind of tiptoe into figuring out how to translate more academic work into journalism.

And I think lastly, for people who really want to plunge in and kind of follow a career path like mine, it’s certainly got a little bit harder. Sadly, local journalism is struggling a lot now. But I will say it’s a golden era for business and economics journalism. And I often on panels, when speaking to journalism students, everybody wants to be a sportswriter or a political writer. And I know that sounds very sexy, but the money is in business and economic journalism. There’s such a need, such a demand. Obviously, there’s the traditional outlets all have economic reporters and business reporters. There’s the Bloomberg and Reuters of the world, those sort of more business focused publications that pay very well.

And there’s also a whole new apps like Yahoo! Finance has a great product that’s one of the most visited sites on the internet. Then you’ve got some startups like Business Insider. Needless to say, if you really want to get into it, I highly recommend going somewhere like a Yahoo! Finance or Business Insider.  It’s a great way to get your foot in the door and they really appreciate people who have a degree in economics, even just at the undergraduate level, who are bringing that extra sauce, that extra knowledge to their writing.

Hasenstab: A golden era for business and economics journalism, that sounds enticing. Heather, is there anything else you’d like to discuss today about women in economics?

Long: I’d just like to leave with some hope. As someone who wrote a piece about how hard it is sometimes to show up, please help us, was the headline. I was part of for a while, one of the reporters, the reporter for The Washington Post on the Federal Reserve, and I remember the day, being at one of those Fed press conferences, I think it was 2019 or maybe early 2020, before the whole world changed. But for the first time ever, there were four women economic journalism reporters sitting in the first row. And it may not sound like a lot. There’s about ten journalists who sit in the first row, but it was the first time ever that four women were representing major media outlets there in the front row asking questions. And I continue to see more and more diversity, you know, even in coverage of the Federal Reserve, which can sometimes feel wonky.

And I think that’s my message of hope. The person who replaced me at the Post, Rachel Siegel, is another great aspiring female journalist who’s been doing wonderful work. And so, you know, change does take time. But it also takes continuing to mentor and continuing to show up. Recently somebody said to me, well, why don’t you just quit? You know, the editorial board or something that happened.

And I said, well, who does that help? You know, then there’s nobody in the room or there’s fewer people. Instead, I think what we need to do is go in and argue and keep continuing to bring strong candidates forward for the editorial board, who will bring more diversity, and then making sure our pipeline continues to be strong.

We’re trying to do it in our own ways in media, and I’m thrilled at the work the St. Louis Fed and others are doing for the economics profession at large.

Hasenstab: Well, I love that leaving on this message of hope. Heather, thank you so much for sharing your story.

Long: It was an honor to be here. Thank you.

Hasenstab: To hear more from the Women in Economics podcast series, visit stlouisfed.org/womeninecon.

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